The Devereux with Quentin Letts

[00:00:01] Hello again, dear listener, and welcome to another edition of TimeTable London, crafted by lovers of London for lovers of London. In recent episodes, it must be said that with all this love swirling around, we have heard the odd harsh word about London, which of course only makes us love the dear old place even more.

[00:00:19] Now for those of you who may still be feeling a degree of trepidation after listening to the doomsday scenarios of our last guest, David Betts, Professor of War Studies at King's College London, we have an altogether more cheerful offering for you today. Not only are we coming to you for our old favourite, the Devereux, in London at Middle Temple, but we also have a new co-host, a talented writer, researcher, producer, and charmer, Kirsty Asher, who we hope will join us in many future episodes.

[00:00:49] And to top it off, we have a guest who will have you rolling in the aisles as he bursts the bubbles of actors and politicians alike. Who might that be? Well, sit back, enjoy, and think of London. Right, so before we begin, the question I have for you, Geoff, is have you got your old age jokes ready today?

[00:01:17] Yes, I've got a few up my sleeve, and I've got a very long sleeve today, so. Yes, you're looking quite distinguished in your green tie, and we're getting over the shock of that. You're doing something later in this very same pub. I am, I'm giving a talk about what you have at The Strand. All right. Yes, the old familiar topic. And with one of our previous guests on Timetable London. That's right, Johnny. Johnny Fielding. Yeah, Boulder Chalk Festival. Right. And we're talking about that.

[00:01:40] So I'm going to talk about Havlock Ellis, the world's first sexologist, who experimented with mescaline only a few hundred yards from where we are. Exologist? Sexologist. That's the thing, is it? Yeah, he coined the term bisexual. And there was also a fire just 10 yards from where we are now, and it was put out by an enormous keg of beer. This was in the restoration period. I've heard about that, yes. Among many other stories.

[00:02:06] And Bishop Walter Stapleton, who was killed in 1324. And his body was dumped in just about 100 yards this direction here. So, I mean, you must have known him. Didn't you, Tam? Pretty much. There's joke number one. Ka-ching! And there we go. So, well, listeners of Timetable London will know that by this time these podcasts pretty much make themselves. Because we've been back to this one pub, for example. This is, I think, our third visit.

[00:02:33] Because we kicked off with Mark Mason back in the day, and then we had a Christmas party here. And now we're here again, breaking new ground with a guest host in Kirstie Asher. Hello. Welcome once again. Thank you very much. Um, veteran listeners know all about Jeff Browell, although not his green tie. But Jeff, glad to have you here. My time. At least glad for the time being. Sound engineer and producer Chris Wayne. I guess there's so many of us around this cast of thousands table that you don't get your own microphone today. Aw, too bad.

[00:03:02] Well, here we are in the Devereux, once the Grecian Coffee House. And we're very pleased to welcome to Timetable London, the podcast crafted by lovers of London, for lovers of London. Long-time diarist, congenial occasional contrarian, journalist, occasional theatre critic. And you can maybe not tell us all about it, because I've just heard today that he's given that up. So half my questions are gone, but we'll find something else to talk about. Quentin Lens, welcome to Timetable London, sir. Thank you.

[00:03:31] Very good to be here. Yes, I gave up being a theatre critic about three years ago, I think. I did 18 years of it. And then I was so exhausted. And also, I became a bit corroded by it. Because? Because so many of the productions these days are trying to tell you what to think. A lot of finger wagging going on. And I just got bored of being told about isms. Yeah. Racism, sexism.

[00:04:01] And did an anti-walkness creep into that judgment as well? Just, perhaps I was just becoming more and more right wing. Not possible, you say. But actually, I think it was getting really bad. It went into turbocharge, really, after Brexit. And then Trumpery arrived. And climate change became a bigger thing. And then we had lockdown. And they came out of lockdown all sort of keyed up. Yes. To tell us off anew. And I just couldn't take it anymore.

[00:04:29] So I was offered a chance to give it up. I grabbed it. And you bit the hand off. Yeah. Well, we don't want to dwell a whole lot of time on this. But just as a... I enjoyed it. I mean, it's a wonderful world to be in. Oh, yeah. After 18 years of doing three or four shows a night. Right. A week. Do you have a story that can match this one? Our favorite production to hate was... I won't mention the actors' names. But it was a production of Macbeth at Stratford. in which the three witches were played by teenage girls in onesies. Yeah. It was getting more and more like that.

[00:04:59] I once went to a thing at the Globe. What, tell you tell pieces of it. I did a Tempest at the Globe I reviewed, which was Mark Rylance. Normally I really love Rylance. Yes. But it was him and I think two other actors did the whole Tempest. And the only prop was a length of rope. And by the... After five minutes, I wanted to hang myself with the rope. Did you see His Much Ado, the old book? That he directed. I saw lots of Rylances, but I can't remember that one particularly.

[00:05:28] It was with James Earl Jones and Vanessa Redcoyne. Oh yes, I did see that. And James Earl Jones, didn't he keep forgetting his lines? He had it on a piece of paper. Yes. Mind you, I saw Jeremy Irons was in a terrible Hungarian play once. And had very, very long speeches. And he used to have to keep going over to one part of the set where there was a bureau. A bureau which had a drawer that he kept opening. And looked in it in a very meaningful way.

[00:05:58] Refreshed his memory. It was like watching. Do you remember the Generation Game? No, I don't remember. When Bruce Forsyth used to present. Oh, right. Towards the end. And people used to have lines put on their back. And you'd read the lines off someone's back or else off a book. I mean, it was just... It was like this... Jeremy Irons production was a bit like that. Right. Was it a Hungarian play? It was in Hungary? No, it was a Hungarian play. It was read by a Hungarian playwright. Oh, I see.

[00:06:26] And John Peter, who was then the Sunday Times critic, who was Hungarian, gave it five stars. I think I gave it one. Yeah, no, it makes sense. What does an Hungarian play look like? It was quite sad. It was heavy on the angst. Yeah, it makes sense. But on the whole lines, I mean, they're amazing actors. They do remember so much of it. No, I did see Jeremy Irons.

[00:06:55] Well, I was working at the Bristol Old Vic, the theatre itself, in 2016, doing a devised, like a year-long devised theatre, I don't know, programme. And Jeremy Irons did Long Day's Journey Into Night with Leslie Manville. And Leslie Manville was incredible. Jeremy Irons was great. I mean, he remembered all his lines. So that was good. But I would say that he was maybe trumped a little bit by Leslie Manville. Manville was terrific. Are you going to see her in Dangerous Liaison?

[00:07:25] I've given up theatre. Oh, completely. You're not going to go to... I've been to one production since I stopped reviewing. And that was... Which was about... A friend of mine wrote a play about adoption. And it was on at a pub in Highgate. I went to that. It was very good. Yeah. For some fringe theatre, maybe. Yeah. But on the whole, I've had my fill for a bit. So what fills your life in that gap that used to be filled by theatre? I'm reading much more. Well, I'm sleeping more. Which helps. I bet. The trouble with being a... I was doing reviews for a long time for the Daily Mail.

[00:07:55] So a daily paper. Yeah. And that meant one was rushing from the theatre. So the theatre would end at about 10. And then you'd have to get home to your computer and then write. Yeah. So by the time you've written a review, you're still buzzing with all the intellectual exercise of writing a review, even in my case. You know, you slept very badly after that. So it's actually quite a tiring occupation, funnily enough, even though you're sitting down for a lot of it.

[00:08:24] But later on, I was a theatre critic for the Sunday Times. And that was a much more congenial thing, because there you would have time to mull on reviews. It doesn't necessarily make them better, mind you. But it was much... The writing process was much more conducive to a normal life. I must say, I really admired your work ethic as it came across in that extended review, which I'm sure you remember with great affection. Was it Rachel Cook in The Observer?

[00:08:53] Oh yeah, it was it. Dear Rachel, yeah. Dear Rachel, absolutely. That was very sad. But she was talking about how you would be writing off something in the afternoon, going to the theatre in the evening, and then heading back to the Lib Dem conference at Brighton the next day. You can have done that many times. I did it 18 years, old boy. And that's why I was a bit knackered by the end of it. Listen, old boy, don't get started. That's it. Sorry, sorry. Obviously, I didn't realise there was this sensitivity. It was...

[00:09:23] Conference season was difficult. Yeah, I bet. Particularly when then Labour started going to Liverpool. Well, there are a couple of good theatres in the Liverpool area, but, you know, if you're doing Liverpool to London and then back... Oh yeah, I can see that, yeah. It could be draining. Yeah. Just as well they didn't have any in the Outer Hebrides, wasn't it? That really would mean a tough one. Yeah, really. Give the SMP time. But actually, that's one part of the job I miss. Going around the country. So it wasn't just London. I mean, obviously, the West End was the main thing and also the London Fringe was quite big.

[00:09:53] But one was trying to do some of the country as well. So, you know, you're going up to Manchester, the Royal Exchange. Ghastly theatre, in my view. I never... I don't think I ever saw something I really liked at the Royal Exchange. But, you know, you go to Sheffield and Leeds and down to Chichester. Chichester, fantastic musicals they used to have. And also, to further flung places sometimes, you know, there's a fantastic place called the Hippodrome in Great Yarmouth.

[00:10:23] I once did a show there, which has a suit... The Hippodrome theatre has a wonderful water feature where there's a pool in the middle and it fills up with water. And then they have these performers who then perform in the water doing aquatics. Release the sharks. Tremendous. Did you ever visit the waxworks in Great Yarmouth? I didn't. It's the most famous waxworks in the world because it was the worst by far. You can still find evidence of it on the internet.

[00:10:53] In the whole world? In the whole world. I thought I've heard of some in Poland that absolutely... No, it's absolutely awful and it got bought by somebody in Texas, I believe. Brilliant. Go to the House of Commons. Who thought? You'll find even worse waxworks. Boom, boom. I was going to say, what's the quality of acting in the House of Commons since you've left the theatre and gone into politics? Well, I was always doing the two. I did parliamentary sketch writing and theatre reviewing. And they're very similar. They're very similar because basically what I do in Parliament is I'm a glorified theatre critic.

[00:11:22] So I sit in the gallery. I'm not one of those political reporters who gets stories or has to have lunch with politicians and try to get exclusives. Thank goodness, none of that pressure. And basically as the sketch writer, what one's doing is reviewing the performance and also analysing not only the plot, but also the characters, the main characters. So your sketch writing is really about the human element of politics.

[00:11:48] And I think the human element of politics is more important than policy. Yeah. Character, what they're made of, the way that they walk and talk. But also, I mean, it's more interesting the way that they say things rather than what they say to me. Yeah. So do they speak in normal speak when they're not on camera? They do. Because they have that bizarre kind of delivery. Yes. It isn't normal. They don't talk like that. The elected politicians do. I'm not convinced that the civil servants do.

[00:12:15] I think they probably talk like that to their families when they're at home. To their cat. The elected politicians, I mean, I do sometimes meet them. I try on the whole. There was a Guardian sketch writer called Norman Shrapnel who was asked why he never met politicians. And he said it might affect the purity of my loathing. That's a great line. I do occasionally bump into them. And on the whole, I find elected politicians really good fun. Yeah.

[00:12:44] Because, you know, that's part of the skill set. Yeah. As the cliche goes. Mm-hmm. Is to be able to charm people and to communicate. But then when you put them in front of a microphone, they slip into this terrible jargon ease. Yeah. Do you blame the electorate? No, I blame, no, I don't blame the electorate. Because the electorate always, they want honest opinion. But on the other hand, when they're given honest opinion, they don't like it.

[00:13:15] Well, I think they do like it. I think perhaps the broadcasters don't like it. Broadcasters are a terrible check on clarity, I think. What makes them that? What makes them so? Well, it's the Overton window, I think. They see their job, a lot of the broadcasters, as police of the Overton window. The Overton window is this concept of what is sayable and what is not sayable in politics. What is polite opinion going to take?

[00:13:44] How long has it been since you first heard that expression? The Overton window? Yeah. I don't know, probably 20 years. Is it as long as that? I don't know when it was first conceived, but... Well, I follow a lot of American politics and they've just started in the last two or three years using that window as if it's part of the... I don't know, Mr. or Ms. Overton. I don't know when they were operating, but I think it's been around for some time. Right. Kevin in Esmeralda, Overton.

[00:14:14] But I do think that the BBC and Sky, less so GB News, see themselves as police of what is acceptable. And so therefore, certainly on issues such as immigration, I mean, it's very difficult. It has been very difficult for people to say what the public thinks, or what parts of the public think. Would you say there are... Which actually may be a good thing sometimes. So would you say there are fewer political characters now than there once were?

[00:14:44] Tony Benn and people like that. Big names, big characters. Dennis Skinner. I think it's certainly true at the moment. But the reason for that at the moment is we're only in year two of a parliament. And as a parliament ages, and certainly as a government ages, so if the Labour government lasts for 14 or 18 years, say, then by the end of it you will have a rich aspect.

[00:15:11] The characters on the Labour side will be much more seasoned by failure and resentment. And that's what makes politicians interesting. Yeah. Politics is very boring when everyone agrees in a party. Or parliament is, anyway. And a parliament really... The best thing about a parliament is when people are stitching each other up and disagreeing with each other. Bitter feud and backbiting and backstabbing. Yeah. So year two of a parliament, although actually this lot are doing quite well with it,

[00:15:42] but year two generally you're still in early days as far as rebellion goes. Yeah. But it's not actually the case. The prime minister at the moment is having a difficult time. But that's what made the 1970s so fascinating because there was a lot of uncertainty in politics. So that's when Tony Benn was really at his height.

[00:16:07] And if you think about the Johnson government, that was fascinating to watch, even though it was a miserable experience for many involved, because there was so much rebellion and because people were slagging off Boris behind his back, or sometimes to his face. How did you find him? Well, I've known him for a long time. I knew him as a journalist. And I found him quite hard to sketch because I found it hard to hate him.

[00:16:36] Actually, hate is the wrong word for about politicians. I know what you mean. One shouldn't hate politicians. I don't hate Keir Starmer. I don't esteem him. But I had a soft spot for Boris, perhaps because I'd known him before, but also because he was on the whole. He was quite a congenial presence. And when Boris was being brought down in a process not dissimilar to what has been going on at present, as we speak, the reason Boris was being brought down was actually because he was quite good and he was quite popular with the public.

[00:17:06] The reason our current prime minister is in difficulty is because he's not popular with the public. If you could go back in time and advise Boris, would you say, look, you've got a good gig here with being the mayor? I think you should stick at that. No, I'd go back to when he was prime minister and just tell him to do his homework more, to spend less and perhaps not to listen to his wife. Oh, matron. I will be called all sorts of terminators because of that.

[00:17:36] I think that's not a view unique to me. And that lets you off? Well, I think it's a bit of covering fire. Yeah. Hi, this is Tam MacDonald, your host. If you're enjoying Timetable London, then please tell your friends about us by sending them a link to the show, giving us a mention on social media, or even by, or especially by, chatting about us in the pub.

[00:18:03] Timetable London, for everything you love about the world's greatest city. Do you think we're still living in the sort of era of Blair? Is that... No. Blair was tremendously successful and stable politician, prime minister. He, gosh, he was good at it. Front of house. He was magnificent. And so was Cameron, actually. And so to the manor born. That's nice. And when living now in times of much greater uncertainty and bundling,

[00:18:31] and which makes it better for us a lot. But also, what worries me slightly at the moment is the way everyone gets so very, very angry. And as a sketch writer, I used to be called the most angry person in Fleet Street or something like that. And I don't think I am now by any means. I'd rather been overtaken in the anger stakes by everybody. So I try and see my job now to try and cheer people up a bit more. You've mellowed. I've mellowed as well, yeah, as you get older. You know, yeah. Back to age. So I hear. And he's...

[00:19:03] This thing about the Overton window, I've got to ask you about one cause du jour that's been involving all kinds of people in my family going back across the full breadth of Canada. We're just amazed at what we've been doing with the assisted dying bill over here. It seems that however the Overton window moves in terms of what the public thinks, that a few, very small number of people can control what actually happens as a result of the process.

[00:19:30] And that's extremely frustrating for all the people who feel that it's time that the public mood was reflected in what was actually determined in Parliament. Well, going back to the Overton window, the problem with the Overton window is it's a very patronising concept. It is indeed, absolutely. And the trouble with the Overton window, it's what the elite deems acceptable, whereas really the point of what we were talking about earlier was that the people of the country, the voters,

[00:19:57] were much broader opinions about things and also not so easily pigeonholed. You know, people aren't left and right the way we might imagine. On the assisted dying, I don't know what I think about that really, because as a righty, I'm all in favour of free choice. But then I realised that a lot of the people who were putting the pro view on assisted dying were people I couldn't bear. So my prejudices kicked in a bit.

[00:20:20] And also I was uneasy about the way that the National Health Service was going to be used to become the National Dying Service. And I didn't like the idea of officialdom having a say in people meeting their ends. It gave me the creeps a bit. It gave me... So I was very torn about the whole thing. I found it difficult to be dogmatic. Right. But before we get into the actual issues associated with assisted dying, I guess the point that I'm making is that the democratic voice was what it was 10 years ago.

[00:20:50] And it's moved. It's shifted, hasn't it? Very many more people would vote for assisted dying if it were put out to a plebiscite or a referendum, whatever. Well, there was polling evidence to suggest that opinions were changing as the debate was continuing in Parliament. I don't know about the polling. But there were... That was reported. I don't know enough about the polling. I think there was a lot... From what I remember, because I've got a few friends who are disabled, I think there was quite a bit of concern from the disabled community of,

[00:21:18] well, will this just be an excuse to offer so that we're not a burden on welfare? And that's definitely a big concern for disabled people. So I think that's why there's been more of a rise in a resistance to it. Because, you know, in theory, it is a good idea to have it. You know, in theory, we should have the liberty. But then it's like, well, what's the state deciding for us? Like you say... But as a sketch writer, I was looking at it. I wasn't trying to...

[00:21:46] As I said, I wasn't dogmatic about the issues. But I was looking at the way that the thing was being sold by the main characters. And Charlie Faulconer, Lord Faulconer, who became really more important in it than the original bill's sponsor, Kim Ledbetter. Charlie Faulconer went... Something strange happened to him. It struck me as a parliamentarian. He became much more angry. He became rather intemperate.

[00:22:16] He became sort of shriveled a bit by the process. Now, I can see he's been driven mad by the filibustering that was going on in the House of Lords. But he lost the ability to sell that bill in an upbeat way. And in politics, you've got to stay cheerful. And this is the problem with some people on the right and the left in politics. Actually, I think the left's a bit better at it.

[00:22:42] But on the right extremes in Britain at the moment, people are terribly cross. And the... I don't know how much detail we can go into it. But there was a by-election. There was a local election recently in Britain where the Reform Party, the right-wing party, fielded a bloke who just looked like an angry accountant. He was dressed in a suit. And the Green Party, which was on the left, had a young woman who wore bright colours and looked happy the whole time. And she got elected.

[00:23:12] And that's because you've got to be positive. You've got to try and cheer people up. Well, people want hope, don't they? Of course they do. They don't want to be told off. No. No. No. Do you think... I mean, there are two phenomena over the last ten years that I've sort of noticed. One is that people among the general public or the electorates, and one is that people have more of a smorgasbord approach to their political allegiance. They're neither left nor right. They have a bit of this and a bit of that.

[00:23:40] They'll take a bit of left-wing economic thing. They'll take a bit of right where they... They believe in sound money. But on the other hand, they're very liberal when it comes to social activities and so on, to assisted dying or something like that. And then the other is the anger issue, that people are much more polarised now. Since, well, it was because of Brexit. It was pre-Brexit Brexit. Brexit just expressed it. I think actually the much stronger motor on this is social media. Yeah. I agree. And social media has now made quite a big difference to newspapers.

[00:24:09] And newspapers now, in newspapers, have gone online. And the newspaper articles that get read the most are those with a strong argument in them. So you're no longer getting slightly more reflective, soft... And that's the algorithms, isn't it? Because they keep reinforcing. And so newspaper features now. You used to be able to get away with writing a very jolly feature about sort of, you know, in praise of fried eggs or something like that. You can't...

[00:24:37] Nobody's going to read that stuff now because it hasn't got an angry argument in it. If you did a piece saying, why fried eggs are an absolute national disgrace, then, you know, people might read it. You can no longer do that gentle stuff. And this is affecting political discourse as well. And it's making people only... It's monetising crossness. Adrian Childs is still able to get away with the fun column, though, I think. He might be because he was established before it. Well, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[00:25:06] But it's harder for... For a new person to do it. ...new people to come in. Yeah, that's true, yeah. ...as quirky. Yeah. Quirky doesn't work. No. In the social media age. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, yeah. But if you're doing it in a journalist or a column sense... Because the editors want things that are going to get lots of eyeballs. Yeah. So if I could fly the flag for a moment for Timetable London as a social phenomenon.

[00:25:30] Quentin, do you think that the whole idea of pub atmospheres and pub conversations mitigates against the social anger? Are we a less angry country because we have pubs? Yes, but we need more pubs. And the trouble is... Oh, I'll drink to that. The trouble is, pubs are really... You know, they've got their ears pinned back at the moment because of the costs of employment. And therefore, I mean, my local pub in Herefordshire has just closed.

[00:25:58] And when a pub closes, a village is denuded and the community loses a lot of its fellowship. How many pubs are there in the village? So there's one other pub in that village in Farnhope. And how many did there used to be 50 years ago? I don't know, I don't know. Probably about six. Certainly in my hometown, I no longer live there now, but the town of my birth, Sirencester, I think, in my father's youth had 50 pubs. And now it's down to about probably under 10.

[00:26:28] But, you know, pubs are a check on extremism, aren't they? Because if somebody goes in there and rants in an objectionable way, someone will tell them to shut up. Or say, come off it, you know. Don't be so ridiculous. Online, there's nobody to say that. Well, there are people who get equally furious in pitfights, but you don't know who they are. But if somebody you know, perhaps somebody who's a bit older than you as well. Sorry to bring back age. It's terrible.

[00:26:56] It's like a fly to a flame. I can tell you that there's no sense of anger welling up at all. No, but oldies, as we were saying earlier, as you get older, you mellow, don't you? Unless you're Donald Trump. You know, you do. We'll get us started on that one. No, I think that's right. And therefore, you know, older people in the community. And this is another problem with the media. There aren't enough old people in the media.

[00:27:26] There aren't nearly as many old hacks as there used to be. Yeah. And right where we are sitting now, it's off Fleet Street. So it was the same. That's where I started. Hack, whoa. Where did you start? I started in Telegraph. Oh, God. So some of my first hangovers were in Elvino. And the wine press, opposite Elvino, there was this terrible place called the wine press. It had a low ceiling and very, very cheap and nasty. House White. House Macon.

[00:27:53] And the wine press is where we used to go. It was a bit cheaper than Elvino. So you'd start off in Elvino to see if there's anything interesting in there. And if there wasn't, you then pile across the road into the wine press and get bevied. And, oh, dear, oh, dear. When I was on the Telegraph, for instance, Bill Deeds was there. Oh, yeah. And Bill was about 100 years old. Oh, he seemed 100 years old. And he would take a long view or he would be much more philosophical.

[00:28:23] So we would all be getting cross and vexed about something. And Bill would come and calm us down and say, you know, it'll pass. And he used to say, for instance, that every diary story, I was working on the diary, the newspaper's gossip column, so to speak. And he would say every diary, he had a bit of a lisp, Bill. And he'd say every diary story, he said, should have one fact, one generalization, and one very slight inaccuracy. And he was right.

[00:28:51] Because if you have a slight inaccuracy in a story, then the readers will write in saying, oh, I think you've got that wrong. And the editor would then think, gosh, people actually do read that. We'll have to keep it on for all those inaccuracies. We'll have to keep it on despite the rubbish he's writing. Did you ever feel that that kind of Fleet Street life, did you ever imagine at the time that would end? That that world would end? Well, it was when I started in 86. So, I mean, things were on the way there.

[00:29:20] That's whopping year, wasn't it? It was starting. I mean, the telegraph moved out a year later to the other dogs. And so, yeah, I mean, I did get the idea it was going to close. But I was very glad to catch the end of it. We had our typewriters. We had typewriters. And they were chained to the desks. And not because they wanted us... I've heard of that, yeah. Not to stop us nicking them.

[00:29:46] It was to stop the journalists throwing them at each other after lunch. Really? And throwing them out of the window. People were very wild in the afternoon. But that wasn't anger in the modern sense. No, that was just because... This is bad behavior. Yeah. So, how have newspapers changed? British newspapers. Well, they are... They're less fun, I think.

[00:30:16] They're less eccentric. Yeah. They are... They're younger, as I was saying. And there isn't quite the idea there used to be of the reader. So, I mean, certainly on the telegraph, we were brought up to write for the reader. We all had a concept in our minds of the reader. And I'm not sure that that is quite so evident these days. People are now writing for... And also that reporters now, news reporters, having to write all day round.

[00:30:46] So there's a constant rolling deadline. Yeah. Which makes it much less fun. Which makes it much less fun. They're not going out to drink. Which is a good thing for their livers. I mean, it did used to be pretty unpleasant, actually. Because the pressure to drink was oppressive. But I don't think they have as much fun. They don't get out as much. They don't talk to people as much. They don't telephone anyone. Reporters never ring now. It's scary. They do everything asking by email. Enquiries to press officers and that.

[00:31:16] So there isn't a human interaction. And that was really the great joy of being a reporter. It was a human-based occupation. It's a bit like being an archivist. And in what way? Well, when I'm asked, what does an archivist do? And they think it's somebody that works with bits of paper. Actually, it involves working with people. Yeah. So it's learning how to make a good pot of tea with a bereaved person or whatever. That's the skill.

[00:31:45] And so when they have these articles about which occupations are going to go by the board because of AI. And they list, they put archivists in there somewhere. If they can differentiate them from archaeologists, which is sometimes free. Which, when I'm renewing my insurance, they are. You'd like Indiana Jones? No. Actually, I think it'll be one of the last to go. Yeah, I agree. That's a very good point. Well, acting is still the acting world. I mean, that must be one of the joys of that world.

[00:32:13] Even though to be an actor must be a miserable experience because of the financial uncertainty. But at least they are still working together in the flesh. Have you seen the deep-fate AI actors, though? I mean, they look incredible. Mm-hmm. Very scary. I mean, theatre actors will be safe. Theatre actors is what I'm talking about. Yeah. And that is probably... Not that I've ever done any acting in film, but I can't really imagine it being as fun as being on stage.

[00:32:40] I think there is something about being on stage that is quite electric. Yes, but although it must be exhausting as well because I suspect that actors, when they're in rehearsal room, are all slightly putting on a facade. And they feel the pressure always to be, you know, successful and keyed up or else to be a slightly different person, perhaps, from what they are. Probably, yeah. But there must be a tremendous esprit de corps. And you don't get that. The brahouser is great. What jobs do you get that in now? Oh, yeah.

[00:33:08] Well, you don't get it in journalism because, as I was saying, they're all online. Sports. Well, sports you do. That's the sort of definition of it. Yeah. And you get it a bit in politics. So this is perhaps why MPs are gregarious and good fun because they are in the people business. So I've heard that politicians from different traditions are often friends when the cameras are on. From different parties? Yes. Oh, completely. Yeah. Completely.

[00:33:35] And they often collaborate and they will often be better friends with people in different parties from those in their own party. Perhaps only because, you know, they don't see them as such rivals. But they work on select committees together. So today I've been in a select committee watching MPs from all parties gnawing away at an issue in collaboration to try to reach the truth.

[00:34:04] I don't think they succeeded, but it doesn't matter. At least they were, you know, they were putting aside their narrow party interests in a rather admirable way. So do you think that politicians today still have the public's interest at heart? Of course they do. But it's a question, I think, of whether or not they achieved that. No, I'm not so cynical. I mean, politicians are flawed. They're human clay. And that's what makes them interesting. Yeah. You know, they're greedy and they're ambitious. But you've got to have ambition.

[00:34:34] If you don't have ambition, what's the point of life? Yeah. Well, you can't say they're greed. It marks them out as different from the people they represent because they're people in clay. Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, there are one or two who then behave badly and then, you know, they get caught quite often. And they have to have the hides of rhinos, of course. They do if they're going to misbehave. Yeah. Or if they're going to try to run our lives.

[00:35:03] Don't forget, you're talking here about people who are going to be setting our taxation rates. So I think that does make them, fair game is a terrible term, but it makes them open to scrutiny. Do you think we overdo it? I don't know. Possibly do sometimes. I think the ones that are a little bit less thin-skinned really struggle. I sense that Keir Starmer struggles for that reason. And some politicians like to be liked.

[00:35:30] The ones that like to be liked can't really cope with proper criticism. I think Trump's in that category. He doesn't like it when he is contradicted because he's underneath it all actually very insecure. I think you're being rather charitable there. I think sometimes the people who don't like criticism are those who are just intolerant, actually. And so, for instance, John Major, I would put, Sir John Major as we have to call him these days. John Major, I'd put very much in that category. He couldn't abide being criticised.

[00:36:00] Really? And I, on the second or third day of his premiership, I called him Dreary in the Daily Telegraph sketch. And I was given the most terrible rocket. Then editor Max Hastings pulled me in and said, you can't call the Prime Minister Dreary. And I said, why not? He is. And Max said, I know he is. He said, you should have called him unexciting.

[00:36:29] Which actually was a very fair point because Dreary is a rather snooty word. Dreary is, particularly, I was young at the time. There was me calling the Prime Minister Dreary. How bloody well dare I? If I called him unexciting, it would have been incontestable. Yeah. And a more interesting word to use, isn't it? Yeah. More funny. It's actually funnier than Dreary. Dreary. Well, I suppose it depends a little bit on who's saying, who's using the word Dreary. Because there are overtones of boring and tedious.

[00:36:56] Well, it makes you sound a bit like, you know, Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey, doesn't it? But Major had complained bitterly about that. Yeah. And, goodness sake, what was he doing? Second or third day of being Prime Minister? Yeah. Worrying about what the young sketch writer on the Telegraph was saying. He must have hated Spitting Image then, wasn't he? Oh, really? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:19] Major does talk in his autobiography about Spitting Image and also the peas, eating the peas. He complains about it. Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm reading that autobiography at the moment, actually. Is Litz in the index? No. But it is a work of shimmering conceit. I just seem to recall all the scandals. That's the thing that... That doesn't get mentioned. Edwina Curry is not in the index. The bath.

[00:37:50] No. Oh, who I used to work with? Phil, the guy who broke the story about Edwina and John Major. Phil, he used to work for... I thought he used to work for the Telegraph, didn't he? Or maybe it was the Times. Not Phil Spector. No. No. No. God, maybe it wasn't Phil. And he was the guy that broke the story about the affair. I used to... I tangentially worked with him for a few years. But he used to... He was like one of those people, like an old school journalist where he could still write in shorthand, which of course no one can do nowadays. Oh yeah, no, no. Lots of them still do that.

[00:38:19] Oh, do they do? Oh, okay. Fair enough. But isn't Major one of the few politicians around the world whose reputation actually went up as a result of having an affair? Yeah, I think so. They made him less unexciting. He's got it in him. The man's got spunk. Oh yeah. Clearly. He seems ageless though. I mean now he looks the same as he did then. Yeah. How old is he? It's because he hasn't changed his hair. He's about 80 now.

[00:38:46] I don't think the public really mind about leg over at all with politicians. I think what they mind about is hypocrisy. Yeah. And if somebody's pretending to be very happily married. Yeah. And then his having it off with someone. You know, adultery is a different matter from just an affair. Adultery is a less estimable thing. Because it shows the ability, the willingness to cheat. Sure.

[00:39:14] And that's why sex in politics is interesting. Yeah. Because it tells you something about their honesty. Yeah. I can never figure out in the American context how often Kennedys could get away with all kinds of affairs. But if you were Gary Hart and you had a model sit on your knee, that was your presidential campaign over. Well, didn't he have a boat called Monkey Business? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that made that story. You've got a good memory there, no?

[00:39:43] Which was the one that couldn't spell potato? Dan Quayle. Oh, yeah. Dan Quayle. But financial, no. Hypocrisy is the worst of the worst, isn't it? That's kind of, in the public's eye, that's inexcusable. But also, you know, politics is, because it is about character, then, you know, it drills into who they actually are. Yeah. Underneath, behind the facade, behind the arras. Yeah.

[00:40:11] Well, you're right about the difference between a one-off fling and an affair, because one involves long-term deceit and potential to lie. To lie to the electorate, if you can lie to your own spouse, then the electorate is nothing, are they? You know, Boris Johnson was often being outed as a philanderer, and I don't think it did him any damage at all. No. No. And he got done in the end because he'd had a bit of birthday cake.

[00:40:41] Yeah. No, but that's a bit like the Trump thing, in that certain politicians have embraced that, haven't they, as part of their brand, as part of their stick. Yes. Well, it shows a sort of lust for life. Hedonism. And it shows energy levels. If you're going to lie, you lie big, don't you? And you philanderer big. Yeah. A minor affair with Cecil Parkinson, wasn't it? You know, an affair with your secretary. Cecil. Yeah.

[00:41:08] Cecil was, I actually knew his daughter. I was at school with her. Charming girl. But Cecil, we used to have, when I was a diarist, we used to have this diarist's club, lunch club. And we would invite, you know, every two months or so, we'd invite a leading politician or a leading person. Dame Barbara Carlin came once. No way. I sat next to her. And we were having our salad starter. And I suddenly noticed this spider in her lettuce.

[00:41:38] And I said, Dame Barbara. And she said, no, it's not a spider. She said, it's one of my false eyelashes. And she licked it and put it back on. But Cecil Parkinson came to the lunch. And we perhaps nautily put him, sat him next to a big strong girl called Kate Sissons. She was sort of six foot four and well built. And she was on the Daily Mail diary. And Cecil, in front of all these gossip colonists, there he was.

[00:42:06] Still, I think he was in the House of Lords at the time. I think he probably no longer in cabinet. But he was stroking her leg and he gave her his business card at the end of it. Absolutely incorrigible. And we were all screaming laughter about it. But to do that in front of... She was as well. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's a great girl. And still is, actually. She now lives in Saint-Tropez. But... As one does.

[00:42:35] But, you know, it was Cecil to a T. He was just remorseless. Yeah. Well, people kind of can admire those who have a twinkle in their eye. Especially if they're much, much older than you go. Oh, yeah. But also, he was actually a very good minister in some ways as well. Yeah. So who would you say... Who would you admire most in your time as a diarist and involved with parliamentary matters? Is it possible to point to two or three people and you can say they're head and shoulders above the rest?

[00:43:04] Either in terms of eloquence or in terms of other... Integrity. How about integrity? Or integrity. Was there ever an Atticus Finch in the House of Parliament? Oh, Atticus Finch. I find a bit of a bore, actually. Well, you would. I do, yeah. And that's what's so precious about you, sir. But that's not what we're talking about. I'm very glad Atticus Finch wasn't in the House of Commons. I might have had to take the... To try and pop that particular balloon.

[00:43:28] But in terms of public speaking, recently, a man called Geoffrey Cox, who's a barrister, who gave the most remarkable ad-lib speech about jury trials, full of all the ticks and tricks of the bar. It was magnificent, delivered in a very strong foghorn voice, and roaming up and down the back bench from which he was speaking.

[00:43:58] And that was a great moment, actually. It showed that oratory, as an art, is still alive in the Commons. I mean, Tony Benn was a very good speaker, too. Hilary Benn, Tony's son, who's now Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I've seen two remarkable speeches from him. The first was his maiden speech, when we were all amazed how similar he was. How Tony-ish he was. How Tony-ish he was. But also, he then gave a speech later about...

[00:44:26] I can't remember which side of the argument he was on now. I think it was to do with Syrian war, and it was defending... It was recommending that we go in with airstrikes, I think. But it just flew out of him. And sometimes, when they feel strongly about something, and if they are on a roll, and if they're in the right frame of mind, and the house is electric, it can really work. The theatre of the House of Commons just becomes electrified

[00:44:55] by a really good orator sometimes. And it was as good as... To see that happen was as good as seeing a really great stage performance. You know, Spacey in his prime or... Paul Schofield. Schofield, I never saw him in his prime. But Derek Jacoby, I saw Jacoby's Lear at the Donmar. I saw that, yeah. Do you remember when he came to the Hurricanus speech? Yeah, I think I remember that specifically.

[00:45:23] When Lear is talking about Over the Tempest. Normally it's done with terrible rattling of backstage storm equipment. And this time they did it, and Jacoby did it at a whisper. And there was no noise from backstage at all. Because, of course, the point of it all, really, is that the storm is in Lear's head. Yes, quite. And it was a most remarkable performance, because it was so different from what...

[00:45:49] So there were none of the bits of corrugated iron being shaken in the wings. No, it stays in the head for sure. Those were the good old days when actors could whisper and be heard in the gods. Well, mind you, the Donmar, it was easier than most. Well, that's true, yeah. Yeah. Was it... Oh, who is it that was playing the fool? Was it Ron... Oh, God, I love him. Ron... No, actually, I couldn't take him at all. Did you not? Oh, no, it's when he went off stage saying, was it, I and I'll go to bed at midnight? And he came off towards us, and he faces... Yeah, that cockney accent. ...wept with tears.

[00:46:18] And I was like, oh, God, I love this man so much. Actually, I don't like the play much. King Lear really annoys me. Do you not? Interesting, yeah. Much more... Did you see Glinda Jackson's Lear? I did. I quite liked that. Oh, I loved you seeing that, yeah. Although I'm normally resistant to that sort of mucking about with the genders. I also had the misfortune to see Ian McKellen's Hamlet when McKellen was, I think, aged 80,

[00:46:44] when he was playing the Dane, and that was an embarrassment. Right, okay. And dare I ask why? Because he was just too vain. And that's my personal view of McKellen. And he always takes his kit off. So, you know, showing his leathery old chest or, you know... He was wearing gym shoes as well. I just thought it was ridiculous.

[00:47:14] I think possibly that's as good a point as any to bring this to a close, because if this goes down any further, you're going to blow our chances of getting Ian McKellen on Time Day to London. But we should wind it up there. Great gratitude to you for joining us. I think we should maybe have two or three more in different pubs. Oh, two more to do discussions. Oh, no, the pints go without saying, for sure. But, Kirsty, thank you for joining us. Yeah, no worries. Geoff, thank you for keeping it more or less under control. I did tonight.

[00:47:42] And I'm sorry you didn't get to say anything, but you didn't have a mic, so that was that. But anyway... It's like Piero. Pointing less. Thank you very much for joining us on Timetable London. Yeah, sorry. And cheers all. Cheers. Blood my night down. In our next episode, coming to you from the lore of the land by Fitzroy Square, our guests, that's yes, two of them,

[00:48:10] are marketing strategist, writer and self-confessed Dandy Darcy Sullivan, press officer of the Oscar Wilde Society, joined by Matthew Sturgis, historian, biographer, and author of Oscar, a light. So, as you can imagine, wit and repartee will no doubt be the order of the day. Alas, and for reasons I needn't go into now, I will be absent from what promises to be a soon-to-letting episode. But my co-host, the ever-popular Geoff Rowell, will as ever be there.

[00:48:40] Sitting in for me will be a combination of our long-suffering producer, Chris Wynn, always mentioned in this context as long-suffering, for some reason it's beyond me, and the delightful Kirstie. Let us hope that the combination doesn't prove so electrifying that your host, Pat MacDonald, that's me, will find himself out of a job.